This topic contains 21 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  Bilbo 11 months ago.

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  • #12257

    David M Blaske
    Participant

    anybody know results of the Downriver race?  I wasn’t able to attend the banquet and I was wondering how I placed in the under 10 feet kayak category.   Also, if I happened to earn a medal will MWA send it to me since I could not attend the banquet?  Thanks to anyone who might know.

    David Blaske

  • #12258

    CJW4D
    Participant

    Hey David,

    they will mail it if you medaled.   Glad you made it down for the races.

  • #12266

    jw
    Participant

    Downriver results will be posted soon.  I recall calling out your name, but can’t remember the details.

  • #12273

    ChrisMatsuno
    Participant

    David,

    Congratulations!  You were first in the <10 feet class with a time of 30:57.

    I will mail you your medal and race tshirt soon.

    Fastest overall time in the downriver race was Levi in the >10 feet class with a time of 27:19.

  • #12285

    David M Blaske
    Participant

    Awesome, Thanks!  BTW, I was able to get a tshirt so you don’t need to send a shirt.

    David B.

  • #12287

    Freddie Carter
    Participant

    I just heard that some really good paddlers were DQ’ed for running the race line at Cat’s Paw ! I could see if there was lumber or an obstruction….. Total BS, saddens me ! Take whatever line you can handle !

    • #12289

      Raymond
      Participant

      Agreed.

      DR is made of three things:

      1. Physical stamina.

      2. River reading to know the fastest line.

      3. The skills to put to use 1. And 2.

      If someone is dictating #2, doesn’t seem right.

      Go fast, take chances. Just because someone else can’t keep thier bow online doesn’t mean you can’t.

      • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by  Raymond.
      • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by  Raymond.
  • #12288

    Freddie Carter
    Participant

    Look at my avatar for a photo of the race line ! 0″ or bridge level, race your own line !

  • #12295

    jw
    Participant

    Thank you for your feedback, the race committee is always looking for ways to improve and will take this into consideration.  If you feel strongly about this, we are looking for new people to help with operations for 2019 and welcome you to attend race planning meetings next Winter.

    Send any thoughts you have to us at: [email protected] so we can consider them at our race wrap-up meeting.

  • #12305

    McChuck
    Participant

    I hope this doesn’t post twice- but for some reason my post didn’t appear.

    Blame me.

    I was one of the first to discover that the flood had changed Cat’s Paw straight route launch rock when I was doing a wave wheel, fell into the newly created slot and broke 3 ribs.

    I brought it to the attention of the high sheriffs. We all discussed it, and decided to make it mandatory for ALL of us to do the cheat route. We will never know how many teeth, faces and ribs we might have saved. I do know we did have someone go straight and get stuck, which would have affected people behind him.

    We have racer’s meeting for a reason- to convey (sometimes) important info. I have missed my share- but I always made it a point to ask other racers about it. Maybe we need a flashing neon sign at the start line…..the bottom line is we don’t know, even among those present, who needs special attention and it shouted in their ear. As for those late- see above.

    We are NOT the Gaulley or the Green Narrows race- we are the MWA race.

    If it were left to me, we would have run the upper for the race- and even though it is a course which takes less time- there would be the usual moaning from those who dislike the aerobics part of downriver.

    I did notice that a guy ahead of me got DQ’d. Allowing 15 seconds difference in routes he would have beaten my time. “Ware?” Contact me Ware, and I will send you my medal.

    For the rest of you DQ’ed…look at your times and be happy with your effort. I guarantee you that next year few will even remember finishing times or medalists.

    • #12321

      Raymond
      Participant

      The fact that there was a legitimate river hazard makes more sense. I took it first as it was an attempt to take out of play a difficult/more dangerous line in order to level the playing ground. If the move I’ve always known is no longer that move, I understand your decision making.

      I also like your initial thought of moving the race course, Chuck. Taking the hazard out of play altogether rather than mandating a certain line through a rapid jives better in terms of philosophy and legality, at least with my absolute ignorance of liability law.

      I was thinking about all you guys racing as I was driving down to the Columbia River Gorge on Friday. Wished I could have apparated there and got my ol’ Quest wet again…maybe next year…

    • #12325

      George
      Participant

      If there is enough concern for safety to require a special route through Cat’s Paw, how is it not a good idea to use the Upper for the downriver in the future? I’ve never raced, but the Upper seems perfectly suited for what I conceive downriver racing to be (aerobic with some slightly technical maneuvering).

  • #12318

    CJW4D
    Participant

    Chuck,   I think that was terry war(d).      I’m sure he appreciates your offer, but he also acknowledges that he broke the course rules thus has no qualms with the DQ decision.

     

    great races and already looking forward to next year!

  • #12327

    McChuck
    Participant

    Thanks Chris, Terry and Raymond for the input. I too am totally ignorant of liability issues, but I am not of basic safety. The Upper has plenty of technicality to it to qualify as a downriver race- and it channels better in low water, with the most rocks to deal with being the very last riffle before fisherman’s. Di and I would have marked the crucial river route decisions to make the race on the upper fair for newbies

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by  McChuck. Reason: Was today the first day of spring??
  • #12334

    Freddie Carter
    Participant

    I will never buy the explanation ! Downriver is Downriver …. if enough people ran it cleanly to get DQ’ed, then it never should have been off limits. It is not for tricks or style points. Just the opinion of a guy who has raced and operated the Downriver Race for quite a few years. PS, screw the Upper … go race bicycles at Walmart instead !!

  • #12336

    jw
    Participant

    Thank you for your feedback, the race committee is always looking for ways to improve and will take this into consideration.  If you feel strongly about this, we are looking for new people to help with operations for 2019 and welcome you to attend race planning meetings next Winter.

    Send any thoughts you have to us at: [email protected] so we can consider them at our race wrap-up meeting.

  • #12374

    Freddie Carter
    Participant

    Well,  all I can say is that I value and trust Chucks opinion on any and all things Downriver ! So I will shut up and go away !!

  • #12375

    Nat Eades
    Participant

     

    Bill

     

    Bill

     

  • #12376

    Bilbo
    Participant

    David, good job, you legitimately beat me by 14 seconds and won the short class downriver.  That is way cool.  Seriously!

    I have my own opinions of the way the races are held now, and how the organizers are considering themselves more important than the racers, and my opinions are immaterial now, because the race results are locked in.  I say the MWA should spend more money on banners that are only good for the year printed to regale the race committee who has been in power since the 1990s. NOT.  I have better ways to spend my dues and my race registration money.

    David, you rocked it on a low water run, and should be proud of that.  Sorry to bring your post into this discussion, but you know, downriver has apparently been considered the component to change the way that the MWC has been conducted historically, and not slalom.  Friday night downriver was great for the 50th anniversary, but is too costly in every resource to maintain going forward.  It involves trying to predict 3 days of good weather and good water, no other event including the clinic requiring that.  It involves organizing food and volunteers to be present for safety and timing, and now apparently judging responsibility to disqualify lines.  A great band can also play on Saturday night and coexist with the medal ceremony.  Going back to Saturday afternoon downriver would be inclusive of young people who do not have the luxury of taking off work or school for such an event held on Friday, and would give us old coots a much better run for our money.  Why on earth is a 59 year old guy taking second in downriver short class anyway? Should not happen, in a realistic competitive field of boaters.

    Whitewater is an assumed risk sport.  The race committee did not consult the MWA board on their decision to change rules of downriver racing to DQ a course line, and I am not aware of any route disqualification decision being made historically on any MWC downriver.  There are differing opinions on safety where Cat’s Paw’s straight route at low water are concerned.  Those who cannot flare a boat should probably not take that line, but rather than forbid the line, the race meeting should have alerted the racers to the condition, and allowed the choice based on the skill level of the paddlers.  That is what happens in the rest of downriver racing.  Hazards are disclosed.  That is all.

    I challenge anyone to take over the timing and scoring myopia.  It needs young and fair representation.  Qualified criticism of bad decisions on the part of the race committee does not deserve being responded to by a form letter open invitation to volunteer, as has happened.  It is a complete cop out and unaccountable.  The status quo has absolutely no vested intelligence towards what it takes to run a downriver race and has no interest of comparing what is done in the rest of the world beyond their governance and willingness to observe.  Step up, young’ins!  It is a good race and a good time.  It absolutely needs to perpetuate, but in a new fashion, that evolves as the sport has!

    Bill

    • #12391

      jw
      Participant

      Fact check.  You can have your own opinions, but you can’t make up your own facts.

      With the exception of the small 51st MWC banner on the pavilion, all of the banners were donated by former member Marty Gain and his sign-making company.  He did ask for a race t-shirt which Dave got for him.  The small sign (which for awhile was the only new sign we were going to have) cost $70 at Hi-Tec.  We wanted it for the photos of the racer-volunteer drawing winners, so we can send those to the donators.  We are in need of some roadway directional signs for the future, but those will be produced without a “year” on them.

      There were 39 racers in the 2018 Downriver race, down from the 50 racers in the 50th Annual MWC, but at the high end of the quantity of downriver racers in our races in the last 20+ years.   39 in 2018 ties with 39 in 2002.  So the positioning of the Downriver on Friday afternoon did not appear to affect attendance substantially.  I will note that the race committee was planning on returning the Downriver to Saturday afternoon for 2018, primarily because we didn’t have a coordinator for the Friday event.  But we found coordinators, and the racing community enthusiastically endorsed the Friday Downriver & event.  There were no dissenting voices at the time, or since, until race week (when the weather turned dreary).

      The MWA Board selects the Race Director, who forms a race committee to organize & operate the annual races.  The race committee is autonomous, and generally only needs to consult the MWA Board on decisions involving expenses over a few hundred dollars.  The Race Committee “informs” the MWA Board, but does not otherwise need to consult or seek approval on race matters.

      Since the 1990s, the race has had numerous Race Directors and the committee has been comprised of many, many enthusiastic (and some not so) volunteers.  Race Directors over that time include:  Greg Brown, Richard Pace, Dale Brown, Jim Warren, Shawn Steadman, Sue Mosbacher, Dave Kovar (1997-2000, 2017-2018), Regina DeWitt, Bob Thompson, John Niebling/Dave Gibson, John Niebling (2006-2008), Mark Wehking, Jo Newbold, John Kornfield, and Tim Pfeil (2014-16).

      The form letter response, which really is sincere, was suggested by a more rational voice on the race committee, to replace a more snarky and direct response to some prior posts.  Those seem to have resolved themselves in the conversation.  The race committee really does want people to volunteer for all elements of the race – for example see this POST.  We’ve already been getting some good response since the event.  [THANK YOU to those folks – keep that help coming please!]

  • #12381

    McChuck
    Participant

    Thanks Freddie! Wow!

    Bill makes a lot of good points. I would be the first to point out that in the “olden days” when the river was 0″ or below, we cancelled. It was the responsibility of the racers to call a number and check on status before they travelled. This worked everytime but once, and we had good water the next weekend (as would have happened this weekend.) The race has grown too big to change weekends now.

    Last year, at minus 3″ I thought outside the box and instituted the single pole gate #9 idea- for which I took a lot of flack. (I thought it was kind of fun). We aren’t an Oly qualifier, we use 5 seconds instead of 2, it is a “Missouri WC race- nothing more- we can do any cockamamie idea we want! I thought of pulling gate 9, but was sure there would be a slew of people complaining that they lost 10 seconds trying to find gate #9 with the ensuing…”Did you go to the racer’s meeting? No? but…but….)

    How many even do the straight route at 2″ or below? And why? (It looks nasty and I’m doing the z route.= the answer).

    Ever since that rock moved (btw I think it moved again) and I broke my ribs I have been concerned for the welfare of my fellow paddlers. I was the one who brought it to the high sherrifs’ attention. I saw nothing wrong with making us all run the same route, same as my instructions for us all to run the first door at 3 doors.

    If we had moved the race to the upper (my first choice) Di and I would have marked essential routes. Why? (since the ‘purity’ of DR racing rests on making your own decisions)- because there are people who have never seen it at that level, and a wrong choice equals no chance to win. Similarly there were quite a few who had never seen the straight route at -2”.

    When I won my first national DR champ at NOC, the Rinos immediately filed 2 protests on me- timing and boat dimensions. (How could some guy from Missouri beat Rino racers on their own river????) Luckily I caught the racer in front of me which cemented my winning time. And my boat met the rules. They then failed to report my win to the USACK even though I had joined the Rinos as a donation to their club. The next year I lost by one second to a Rino (my timer said I’d won by 9 seconds.)  Yes, I’m still bitter, but I walked away without a word.

    I personally have decided I will not take part in anymore races 0″ or lower. And I agree with Bill in that the races have become less about racers-  but there also comes a time to walk away and move on.

  • #12393

    Bilbo
    Participant

    Chuck, thanks greatly.  I talked to you about this during the races, but it needs to get out.

    The races are about the MWA, not individuals within it, regardless of volunteers with decades of tenure.  I really don’t care if a sign was donated or not, a sign for an MWA event should never have an individual’s name on it, only the organization, as it is an asset of the organization.  What has gone on for two years is self serving and obvious at that.  And to have any year-specific assets created other than milestone years such as 50, is just frivolous and again, obvious.

    Autonomous as the race committee is by charter, the myopic nature of certain continuing groups within the committee, regardless of who directs, should in fact open up to not only the board, but others that will take the responsibilities in the future, with consideration of how other like groups are handling the changes and challenges of whitewater participation, and racing.  If decisions continue to be made that have the potential of putting the MWA in whole in a bad light, then the autonomy should be rescinded.

    For those outside looking in, the race process averaged over a decade (actually much longer) has not made money for the club but has been a tradition worth supporting, at the expense of clinic revenues and general membership.  It is not the first time that the club has had to look at spending in a new light, as printed newsletters and printed signage and printed anything had much to do with traditions that may have needed to give way to new methods, and better fiscal responsibility.  The club is in no way insolvent and rationalization has always been upheld to fund the races.  That does not mean, however, that the race committee should be able to dominate volunteer and funding resources without question, and in unsustainable ways.  The autonomy that shows obvious cronyism, frivolity and self service must stop, and much more attention should be towards service to the racers.

    Many of us watched the aftermath as a young paddler who had been in the “staging pool” for possibly over an hour was told that he could not race because a memorial service was being held and the timing tent said only four more racers could go before the cutoff.  There were only five total left to race, and the starting crew should have at least relayed that to the timing tent, but in the hierarchy that is well assumed regarding operations, no one had the courage to question the timing tent.  Egregious.

    On a side note, I have just been asked to help out, or at least advise, a decision to upgrade the PA system for the races that was purchased in 2000.  I was told that the board approved upgrades last year.  Hmmmm, I have been the board member at large for 2 presidents and was not a part of that decision, else I would have promoted a whole new idea of incorporating timing and PA to WiFi repeating, this technology showing the most development and the greatest pricing reduction for a given method compared to FM or Bluetooth.

    “You must be present to win” where physical board meetings are concerned is a concept of the past, in our world of instant communication and networking.  It tends to be impractical as well, outdated as much as our MWA charter is in whole.  The folks I target as the problem will deny the problem, because they are in too deep and only look backwards and not to the sides or forward.

    I regret that I need to resign as board member at large, because I am not communicated with unless something needs to be fixed, most times with notice too late to do much or anything about it.  It is indeed a protest decision, because I see a widening chasm between the actual active boating community, regardless of age, and organizations such as the MWA, who do not evolve continuously but rather operate on charters developed before 1990.

    Race committee, you may operate in autonomy all you want.  You may also fix all that you have bought.

    Bill

    • This reply was modified 11 months ago by  Bilbo.

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