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This is all I’m going to say about this.
Should we just give EVERYONE a medal? That seems to be the common trend now days! Do you really want a medal in the planning hull division, medium boat length, plastic, 30-40 year old category, weight range 120- 130? (“How many were in your group- Oh, just me.”)
In downriver, wildwater is a wildwater boat= composite, insanely tippy, very fast. We haven’t raced wildwater in years.
Expert is everyone else who has won a novice medal. If you care that much to race- Go to Craig’s list…you can buy a long boat for $100. A hint: A rodeo boat is NOT going to do well in downriver. I can name you 5 people who did just that because they cared about being competitive.
In slalom. We have Olympic Class for the Olympic boats. We have expert for everyone else who has won a novice medal. And we have novice. In the afternoon we have age group which is wide open boat type (?)
Day 2- we have 34 classes of Canoe, and plastic short and plastic long in kayak.
There was a time when there had to be at least 3 to make a class. Sometimes that meant combining 20-30 and 30-40 into 20-40, or 40-60, etc. On a low river, weight is 10 times more relevant than age if you want to divide into fair classes.
In this scenario- medals mean something.
What do you want YOUR medal to mean?
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more medals = more talk time, and more stale jokes!
good input Chuck. I’ll note that one reason we have multiple classes in some categories is because we have had a small set of very fast folks – of course the ones who work at it the most, plus some star athletes – and I recall years when I heard griping about never being able to beat those folks. Implying “why bother to try”? Even in their mid-60s those folks are still pretty dang fast, not naming any names here…
So age group was created, and that seemed to satisfy most people – someone can be the best in your age group (unless you are in your mid-60s…).
But we are going to take a look at all the classes for 2017. Anyone with input, feel free to send to racedirector@missouriwhitewater.com or post it here. Anyone with strong feelings is welcome, along with anyone else, to JOIN THE RACE COMMITTEE & GET INVOLVED IN THE PLANNING. Not saying you’ll get your way, but at least you’ll have some direct input, and we always need good folks.
As far as the 3 boats to make a class rule – yes, we would like to have that. We need more women paddlers! We have too many single person classes.
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Only input I have has already been said 🙂 our times were decent I think for a creek boat, in the water level we had. but the long boats just blasted my time away 27 mins REALLY no way in a shorter creekboat unless waterlevels was over 10 inches lol! Just aggravated due to last years race getting a better score then this years, swimming 2 times last year and being 15 mins quicker! I could have sworn Id atleast place not almost dead last… I never stopped paddling but for when my gloves was messing me up and slipping so I took them off but still
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I like Chuck’s comment on what should it mean to win. I am attracted to the simplicity of DR in it is simply who gets from A to B in the shortest amount of time. At the end of the day, I just ignore all the classes and want to see what the times are and hopefully be the fastest man in Missouri/Kentucky/North Carolina etc. on that given evening.
If I’m not, then that is fuel for the fire during those grueling attainment sessions next year 😉
-Raymond
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The point Raymond made is exactly how I used to feel. If I lost, it spurred me to get better.
I would also like to point out that I was very surprised that I was able to race this year (with LOTS of Rx anti-inflamatories).
Extrapolating I don’t see any possibility of me racing next year- so I have no vested interest in medals.
In horse racing, I think the only races I’ve seen where the racers stood on their saddles, is at the circus. That said, I think the DR and slalom SUP runs went well. I have no idea how the judging went. I really hope no one invents short Sups.
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Jim mentioned race meeting participation. Made me ponder. The race meetings as well as club meetings are held in STL. This leaves “out of towner’s” out of touch. We sometimes call persons during a meeting if we are in dire need of their input.
With todays technology, perhaps we could set up some sort of conference meeting? Most have done this with a speaker phone at some point. Can we do this with something like this?
Bluetooth portable conference speakerphone smackdown: Philips WeCall vs. Logitech P710e
I would propose that persons who reside within 30 miles or so of the meeting location be “blacked out”.
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good idea! I’ve asked about meeting participation cause Ill never be able to make the meetings I live 2 1/2 hours away! i’d be up for like a group phone call so I can make the meetings there’s programs out there with multiple video platforms as like a program called LINE and Im pretty sure it’s video also. not that my opinion matters since im brand new haha!
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Good Discussions going on here.
- I would second the motion to try video / teleconferencing for the meetings
- Blue Jeans, WebEx, Netviewer, GoTo Meeting are all options of easy to use web service.
- There may be some fee to use them, but we may be able to scavenge from a work account
- Like the conversations about Classes
- Good to give everyone a fair chance, but how many chances?
- Long Boat Pro / Long Boat Novice, Short Boat Pro / Short Boat Novice
- or Age Groups (but not both), or implement a rule where you can’t use the same person / same boat in two different classes.
- I guess what is goal, let everyone run as many classes as they can, or get as many people to participate and limit total runs per participant.
- And we need to get a permit for drones to fly kayaks from the finish line to start
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Lmao about the drone flying to the start to finished that would be awesome LOTS OF Quadcopters and excellent pilots to fly one back lol.
Ok so what I cant tell you is the different classes Just to say anything like under 9 1/2 foot boats short boat class and anything over long boat just to give a fighting chance for all reguardless of age on DR… And same with DR expert cause really If you have a long boat race then you have a awesome race and those who dont wanna buy a long boat, will have a chance into being a bit competitive. But theres so many different variations that it gets confusing.
I didnt relize ya’ll didn’t already have a split class for long and short boats in novice. not saying I would have placed but I know I would have atleast had a better place then 9th lol reguardless this whole competition thing is supposed to be fun and benifits the waterways and other various things. Thankyou guys for holding this I myself had an enjoyable time.
- I would second the motion to try video / teleconferencing for the meetings
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Good points being made. Thinking about this….how many expect a medal just for showing up and racing? Look at the winning people and you will most likely see people that have actually trained and worked for it. To use Joe Satori for an example, he and his family train, and run gates they set up. I used to train on gates at a pond.
On the national race scene I used to surprise people and they’d say “Missouri? How did HE get here?” and I’m sure they say the same about Daniel Satori, Coleen Hickey, and the gal from Illinois that raced with us this weekend. It is possible.
I love the idea of Novice class, and handing out medals like crazy. However, expert is THE class, that produces arguably the fastest man and woman in Missouri….Rory! JoJo! Raymond! Di!
Signed- Di McHenry’s husband.
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A lot of folks might miss the fact about training/prep you pointed out Chuck.
Some of us spend hours and hours in the months leading up to a race doing attainments and on a kayak erg doing sprint sessions and hit the gym for strength training. Then there is also proper diet and nutrition to ensure you are at proper fight weight.
There is the matter of really learning how to read water so well that you can ID the line that is fractions of a second faster in a rapid than any other. Then having the needed skill to put that boat on that line within inches and the forward stroke on the flats to be as efficient as possible. I ran that course 3 times the day before the race and studied it. I bet I ran it 3 times in my head from start to finish before going to sleep on Friday night, remembering the crux lines that I needed to hit.
Some people might think it is just about what boat you bring to the start line, but that is just what you see on race day, you don’t see the effort and struggle that you put in up to that point.
Medals are WON on race day, they are EARNED in the months of suffering leading up to hearing the words “Go!”
-Raymond
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Hopefully no one shows up “expecting” a medal, no matter what their skill is. I’m a cross country coach and anything can happen during a race to affect the outcome. I’m pleased with my 2nd place medal out of 4, in age group slalom but I still wish there were more competitors in that 30-39 group. I would’ve been ok with bumping it up to the 30-49 just for more competitors. More importantly than anything is that I made a decent time for my first year and had one run without penalties. Just means I have to practice more and now I have a base line to improve on. I had a lot of fun and glad I experienced it.
For the downriver, I need more age group competitors as well since I was the only 30-39…….and an old perception boat apparently hahaha
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Juss for the record, ITZ ALWAYS A DOWNRIVER RACE ! Everytime ya get on WW …. It’s a state of mind. I rarely beat many, but I love it none the less ! Also, if you think any of this discussion is a “new topic”, we have been battling for decades. I was in charge of the Downriver Race off and on for years (till I missed a “meeting”!) But lobbied hard for at least age groups …. Got tired of getting smoked by 18 year olds on flat water sections ! I have raced Downriver in Super EZ’s, Tornado’s, Creek Boats, An Attitude one year ! Always fun to participate. Medals, smchedels, enjoy the ride !
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If you feel the need to get a medals please train and or race in as many classes as you can.
I race kayak, my strongest, as well as anything else. C1, OC1, OC2, etc. I do not get in some of them but once a year. It makes me a better boater and I would race them even if I did not get medals. in many years past, there were not 3 boats in a class. I will still paddle them anyway, even if it meant no medals!! This year I paddled in 2 classes that I was the only boat in. Had a great time!! -
I think this ends up being a race weekend for the diversity of paddlers that we have, and is intentionally as inclusive as possible. It is what attracts many to get involved, knowing that they have a chance on a fairly even playing field.
That said, my opinion that seems to parallel Chuck in at least one way considers that there should be a minimum of 3 boaters to create a class. And a “fold process”, where a singled out paddler gets folded into the next appropriate class.
I really don’t care so much about age classes and would prefer to do away with them, reducing classes even further. Maybe its just that I’m not thrilled to be known as a super master. The exception to this is below 18 years of age. In KY I beat many 18-25 year olds in similar boats within a short class under 10 feet, and some in much longer boats. Chuck, the guy beat up more than any paddler I know now, finally got passed by younger people this year, so who cares about age? KY did not have age class, just men, women, and two lengths, above and below 10 feet in their downriver, and everyone had a blast. That said, they have a huge rivalry between the BWA and Vikings, so their scoring also biases to see who has the best accumulated times to win bragging rights for the year, and, of course, the Jess Cup. The slowest boater got a brick.
I do care about length of boats where water conditions are concerned, and we consider that for slalom, but not downriver. The main advantage you will have for speed is weight of paddler in a low water race, lighter the better. In a higher water level race, slalom or downriver, paddler weight is much less important.
A potential racer can choose between short boat and long boat for downriver, for instance, regardless of age, when you know the water conditions, if that is possible. That is still inclusive, and creates the strategic ability to choose.
The person I feel the most sorry for in the races is Michael Dee. He is a great athlete with serious hair, yet he continues to lose to Jerry, and did not get the MooMoo at the paddlers raffle. I think I will buy him a beer.
Bill
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great discussion. i think the fastest times spanned quite a few classes: olympic Rory (no training?!!!), expert Levi!!!, novice Chris!!! we do give out a boat-load of metals. what if metals were given to the fastest 3 times k1m/w, c1 m/w, no matter what class, and ribbons the rest? love the event; very fun for all!
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Bilbo brought up a very good topic- and one which elicited very pleasant memories. TEAM RACING.
There used to be a very fun race series in Arkansas called the Arkansas Cup, and we also did this off the record at MWC a few times. We would form teams of 3 or 4 and race other teams…in Arkansas this would be Missouri, Louisiana, Arkansas, etc teams. Slim, Dan Frisch, and I, et al, would kick butt (sometimes) and bring home bragging rights. It was a blast.
The “Cup” was a series of three races, with a grand total that actually earned you coffee mugs for first place. I have found these mugs to have a much greater utilitarian value to me than medals.
Don’t know what they would cost….but we could also have these as “grand prizes” for overall best performances.
For me therewas a bit of sadness and realization in NOT winning gold for the first time EVER- but you know what? We are not judged by our wins, as much as we are by the quality of our competition! In that aspect, I stand tall- Joe Satori, Levi, Raymond, Rory, Pete, Jerry, you are our new targets….congrats! And I am already delusionally thinking of how I can manage to beat them next year….#1 if I design a course, I am going to have NO Right handed upstreams LOL!
I have talked to so many people on the river who are going to find faster boats with the same idea of beating these guys…….and THAT is how you win a medal!
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