The eternal debate - which boating vehicle??

So the old Dakota is a total loss , every fender was damaged, passenger side suspension busted, interior needed rebuild, repairs were estimated at >95% of vehicle worth. So, what now?

1. Buy another 4-door, mid-size truck, probably not a Dakota - too easy to steal - a Tacoma / Frontier perhaps, full size Ram/Silverado ?
2. Buy a full-size wagon, Subaru Outback, Volvo XC70 or VW Jetta
3. Buy a mini-wagon such as a Vibe or Matrix.
4. ??? Van? SUV? Suggestions?

I guess 1. probably isn't the smartest in terms of fuel economy but as a result trucks are ridiculously cheap right now, plus you got to love the versatility that a truck brings, having said that, it's probably also the most likely to get stolen again. The full-size wagon is probably the best option, although I kind of hate having to sit with my knees wrapped around the steering wheel and I'm not sure how comfortable it is for 4 people on a trip down to the Ocoee. I love the higher seating position in the Matrix, plus the fuel economy rules, but then I am pretty much confining myself to two people and would that vehicle work well with a dog?

Decisions, decisions, help!

Hey Jonathan, I don't presume to make any decisions for you in choosing a new vehicle but as long as you ask....

I have a Toyota Matrix and love it. When I bought it I was just looking for a vehicle to use around town and to drive to work that wasn't going to eat me alive paying for gas. My Ford Ranger, which gets around 18 miles per gallon just wasn't cutting it. I still have the pu but it sits parked in the garage most of the time except when it snows and I need four wheel drive to get out to Hidden Valley or other unforeseen needs. The Matrix turns out to be a great choice in that the entire interior lies flat making it perfect for putting a kayak inside when you don't want to mess with tying it to the roof or stuffing the mountain bike inside for the same reason. Otherwise, the roof racks move everything up out of your way and the interior can be used for carrying people and/or gear. And since it lays totally flat inside, you can sleep in it with absolutely no loss of comfort (you'll need a pad). You're definitely going to be happy with the gas mileage too, closer to 30 miles per gallon or better.

A truck is sure nice if you haul stuff a lot but if not, and can make use of one of the other choices such as the Matrix or a wagon. I do miss our old minivan -- it was awfully nice to lay in our comfy bed while driving and have all that gear stuffed underneath but it didn't do very good on gas and Tracey wanted all wheel drive for dealing with winter driving, HV, and those occasional boating trips with shuttles from hell. For that reason Tracey bought the Honda Element and although it doesn't do great on gas, dloes do well enough if you keep the speed down while traveling. Like the Matrix the interior opens up making it a very nice utility vehicle.

Jonathon, I recently bought a 4 door, 4x4 Tacoma and am glad I did. I was thinking about getting a Subaru Forrester, but glad I went with the truck. It sits higher, has ample seating, and more storage. The only thing I would like to have on it is a bed shell. It came with a toneau cover, but really limits storage.

The fuel economy isn't the best, I get around 18mpg on average, but most of my driving is highway, with very little city driving. I'm not sure what it is with boats on top, but it does decrease. If I remember correctly, you pretty much abide by the speed limits, which does make a difference. I tend to drive a little faster, mainly because I'm always running late.

The point I would like to make about the Tacoma is the used market isn't really being effected like other vehicles such as the SUV and larger trucks. Mine was bought from an auto auction in Ohio, and including shipping (about $400), it was only a couple hundred less than the KBB and Chromebook retail price. I had someone looking for quite a while, about 3 months actually, for a Tacoma like I got, and the buyer was searching most auctions through the U.S., but very few were coming through. People buy those trucks and hold on to them.

Too bad the diesel version of the Forester isn't available yet. I don't know if my car can survive until 2010, but I'm going to try. 34-49 mpg looks sweet. They're already available in Europe so at least we'll know how they'll perform once they arrive here.

Either way, I'd choose a Forester now if I were in the market. Room for 4, low roof height makes loading boats easy, close to 9" of ground clearance is pretty good, decent gas mileage, and they hold their value well.

I have agonized over this all summer, but I am in a unique position of needing space in a car, good mileage, and torque to pull a vehicle loaded with boats, gear and friends. I have chosen a Volkswagen Jetta Sportwagen Clean Diesel, and should have it by October or November. A diesel is advantageous if you are doing the majority of your driving on the highway and not the city. If you are a city, short distance driver for the most part, you will do better with a hybrid.

I love my Matrix except for one thing. It is a dog when you are carrying as much as it has space for, with boats on top. I have to downshift to third on some of the hills in TN on the way to the Ocoee. I drove a diesel 2.0, and another 1.8 Volkswagen loaded in the past year, that did not lug a bit under the same circumstance.

I have a secret on how to get one without paying a Saint Louis area VW dealer "market adjustment", another phrase for "profit without working for it". It is not the first car faced with dealers adding to the MSRP when a car is as popular in its initial offering as the Jetta TDI. The adjustments in Saint Louis have ranged from $1K to 6K above sticker for Jetta TDI.
Bill

so, when can we drive this diesel

With a claimed 40+ mpg, the fuel cost per mile will be fun to watch as you unfold actual data.

look here:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

I understand, and agree, Frank, but isn't most of the idea to try to use less fuel? I figure I will not be able to protest big oil's decision to charge more for a fuel that requires less work to refine, but at least I can get enough torque to climb a hill without showing off my racing style downshifting. The performance aspect is coupled with the decreased actual fuel usage to sway me to diesel.

I have done some math and am also hoping for the disparity of diesel to gasoline to change to at least closer to what it was when I grew up. So far, the oil companies are gouging the trucking and farm industries much more than me, even though those costs do end up trickling down to me. Whoever the next administration represents, both sides at least profess to not be as swayed by lobbyists, and if this is correct, big oil may need to adjust or face potential regulation.

I appreciate that hybrids are doing "something" to lessen the consumption, but I feel that it is on the backs of the consumers, to buy futures in auto service destined to profit on spent batteries, and charge outrageous prices for "proper disposal" of the materials in the batteries as they do with tires now. Hybrids are urban and suburban vehicles, which are a good chunk of the demographic, but they will not help me.

It may be that I find work out in the boonies, or a telecommuting job in industry, but for now I chose my arduous commute, and am part of the problem of fossil fuel usage, so I am going to at least rationalize this in a car choice that I know will require longevity at a fair maintenance price, higher mileage ratings biased at highway speeds, and performance enough to not have a tractor-trailer enema on a hill.

If you do not mind driving an obvious demo car with green trees and flower decals all over it, you can drive it now for about 20 minutes at any of the VW dealers. When I get mine, you can have a driving shift.

This caught my eye. I always thought diesel required less effort and therefore costs less to refine. According to the link Frank posted above, 16% of the cost of a gallon of diesel is for refining vs 3% for a gallon of gas. Interesting.

So yesterday I test drove these vehicles

1. '09 Pontiac Vibe 2.4L, manual transmission. Peppy little vehicle, with little being the operative word. There's no way my dog would even fit in the back without flattening the seats. The flat seats are a neat trick, but then it really does become a one/two person vehicle.
2. '07 Suzuki Forenza Wagon, piece of crap
3. '02 Saab 9-5 Aero Wagon. Really interesting vehicle, a 2.3L 4-cyl 250hp engine with 258ft/lbs of torque, what the hell?? Won't be downshifting on hills with that baby. Those darn Swedish jet designers put a high-pressure turbo on that thing! Pretty sweet interior too, huge trunk 37/73cu ft., comfy, leather seats, plenty of rear seat leg room - but no driver's side cup holders??! wtf? man without anywhere to put a 62oz. diet Dr Pepper I am just going to doze off on the way to the river in those big 'ol comfy seats.
4. '04 Subaru Outback Wagon, Limited. Yeah, gotta love these, still best AWD out there and a fair amount of room inside, trunk 27.9/61.6cu.ft
5. '05 Volksagen Jetta Wagon GLS. Great solid wagon, good anti-theft security, nice stereo, plenty of room in the trunk 34/51.9 but you can tell from the extra room generated from folding the seats down the second row is darn cramped, I had to sit with my knees around the drivers seat, that's comfy - not! Extra 12V outlet in trunk, full size spare which is good. Drives and handles well, quiet ride. Only FWD, have to get a Passat Wagon with 4Motion for AWD which I didn't test drive (wasn't on the lot).
6. '09 Subaru Forester, manual. Didn't really impress, there's lots of room inside but kind of in the wrong places, I don't really need 6" of headroom. Still the trunk is large 30.8/63.0 cu ft.
7. '01 Volvo V70 Cross Country AWD. Dude, those are some freakin' comfy seats man, I mean seriously comfy. Plus lots of drink holders for my Dr Pepper Okay not quite the power of the Saab ('cos it's not made by jet designers I guess), but 197hp, 210ft/lbs torque should be enough for most situations. Huge trunk 37.5/71.5, big enough for the dog and some pals, roomy back seats, still comfy too.

I might buy the Saab if I could find anywhere to put my drink but I guess with 250hp in a wagon you should probably be hanging onto the steering wheel with both hands! I'd probably buy an Outback if I could find one I liked but the Outback security is not the best, you can just poke a stick between the window and the door frame and press the unlock switch - awesome! So, to my mind the Volvo V70 is looking pretty sweet right now, unfortunately it has the worst gas mileage of the lot, but then anything is better than the old V8 Dodge Dakota

Curtis, if you read the definition link given in that chart, it does not reflect the oil companies cost to refine, only the snapshots of pricing before and after it endures that processing. This is the exact point we should be making to big oil. If nothing else, I would love to see an actual P&L statement of refining, with all of the subsets involved, including adding dye to diesel for "public" use versus no dye for agricultural use. I do not think they are willing to do that. Even removing the excess sulphur pales in comparison to the amount of steps required to refine gasoline.

The reason this is clearly evident is historical. Oil companies were quite forthright in the 60's and 70's to state what it cost to produce fuels. Does anyone know any Petroleum Engineers? I did went I went to school in Rolla, but that was........a long time ago. I am curious if this sulphur reduction to make clean diesel is what they are claiming makes diesel fuel cost so much more.

Jonathan, the '09 Jetta Sportwagen is the size of a '05 Passat Wagon. The wheelbase, track, and wheel geometry is identical between the sedan and the wagon. Handles like, well, an Audi or a Beemer.

Jonathan, if you like the Outback, but are worried about security, why not just have an aftermarket system installed? I had a Jeep back in '96 with a sweet alarm. You could dial the sensitivity to the point that if someone walked within 2 feet of it or the wind blew, it would go off. I found a sweet spot that would actually allow me to leave the top off and no one could reach in the perimeter without it going off. Might be worth check into with any car you get. I think it was a high end Viper but the previous owner installed it so I don't know for sure.

Jonathan,

I owed 2 Volvos, a '86 wagon and a '83 sedan. While I liked them and both were reliable, the repair costs were too high.

Johnathan,
there seems to be an endless supply of small SUV's on the market now. Ground clearance, dog space, not too tall for loading the roof.
Most claim 25+ mpg's. Some American (read that mucho cupholders).
I had a long trailblazer rental for a week out west - 21 mpg in leather luxury. Drove it over tincup pass which is serious 4wd territory. It was smooth and quiet on the highway. they have a solid inline 6 cyl.
also drove a dodge magnum rental.....yeehaw!!! downshift? only when you wanna burn some rubber!!
expand you search into some of the new smaller SUV's if your goal is not higher than 23 mpg's. most are half the cost of a volvo.

Heh On my meager scientist's wages I can't afford a new car, or I could but then I couldn't afford to drive it Ended up with a '02 Volvo XC70 with similar mileage to my truck for practically the same value as insurance will give me, seems like a good swap but of course you can never really tell with a used car until you've driven it a few thousand miles